If you buy and sell on Flippa or you are thinking about it, there is an excellent back and forth discussion on Namepros that is a must read. The thread started out about the Whiskey.com $2,000,000 bogus bid, but on comment 86, Image Authors gave his opinion of what he sees happening on Flippa. I can say in private some others have expressed similar concerns. The brokers who sell on the platform vs the individual is an interesting dynamic. Kevin Fink from Flippa is an active participant in the thread and does a nice job of explaining things from his perspective. Kevin really has been the straw that has stirred the drink in Flippa becoming more active in domain only auctions.
I think for many the things Image Author and Kevin Fink bring up will be informative for those new to the platform, and some things may even be an eye opener for those who have sold there already.
The first comment from Image Authors:
Kevin, my own conclusion about Flippa has been this:
Flippa gives privileged marketing to a small group of sellers over and over again. This helps create the impression that “If those guys can succeed, then so can I”.
In reality, Flippa’s top-visibility spots are often taken up by a privileged group of sellers and by shill bidders who climb the “most active” ladder through fraudulent activities of their own (for which Flippa is not directly responsible).
Ordinary Flippa customers must pay a variety of extra fees to get their auctions seen. Essentially, these fees are Flippa’s real business model. I’m guessing they account for much more revenue than percentage-based commissions from auctions that actually succeed.
6 or 12 months ago, the playing field on Flippa used to be much more level, much more fair. But in the past months, the market place has become increasingly lopsided.
In fact, the selling situation at Flippa has become so absurdly skewed that a few special Flippa sellers will contact the rest of us and tell us that we need to let them list our domains because of all the special perks they get and all the “watchers” they’ve accumulated.
That isn’t brokerage. It’s just a few people with head-of-the-line privileges shaking down the rest of Flippa customers who must stand in line behind them. Frankly, it’s ridiculous.
As time goes by, the situation on Flippa will become less and less fair, less and less competitive. Why? Because people with premium domains will be convinced to give their domains to some special Flippa seller so that he can list it for them — pretty much as they would have done themselves — and skim off an additional 15%.
Why do those guys get that extra 15%? Not because of any special outreach they’re doing. No, their “brokerage” pitch to sellers is based on the special perks they get (and the sellers can’t get) from Flippa management and on the watchers they’ve accumulated as a result of those special perks. The deck is stacked against normal sellers.
If the owners of good domains would list their stuff themselves on Flippa, then they’d accumulate a list of “watchers” themselves. But, as things are, they simply cannot get seen! Not unless they pay for a long list of add-ons to show up alongside the special privileged sellers. Not unless they ask their friends to place lots of fake bids below the reserve.
So what happens? Premium domain owners get sucked in to the idea of letting a privileged class of Flippa sellers act as a layer between themselves and any possible success on the platform. Those sellers scrape off an extra 15% just for creating listings, which is exorbitant and unearned, in my opinion. And worst of all for Flippa customers, all the “watchers” that would have gone to them go instead to the “broker” who stands first in line. So over time, their own sales and their own success contributes to making the playing field at Flippa more unequal!
It’s a very bad deal for Flippa customers. Simply atrocious, in my opinion.
Am I bitter? No, I don’t think so. 6 to 12 months ago, I had some decent sales at Flippa. But since then the selling environment has gone downhill. Really downhill.
Not worth $9 to list anything. It’s too much of an uphill battle to get seen — and an increasingly unnatural uphill battle, tilted more and more steeply due to Flippa management desicions.
Kevin, I like you personally. And I’ve even received some free promotional upgrades in the past, which I appreciate. Auctions and sales are always hit or miss. But Flippa is stacking the deck AGAINST regular customers.
I stopped listing at Flippa not because stuff wasn’t selling (from time to time it still sells if you’re lucky enough to be seen through the shill bids and special “brokers” with front-of-the-line privileges). I stopped selling because I felt like I was jogging and Flippa kept tilting the slope up. At this point, selling at Flippa for most of us is like running up a 70-degree incline. Unless we agree to give 15% to special sellers with access to attention.
I certainly wouldn’t want to pay extra just to even things up on a basically unequal platform. And as for surrendering to a special class of Flippa brokers in order to get a normal degree of visibility, count me out!
Here is the first reply from Kevin Fink:
Hi Joseph,
I appreciate your sentiments towards me, and extend the same to you, but we’ll probably agree to disagree on just about all else. Nevertheless, this should shed some light on where Flippa’s Domains business and I are coming from.
“Flippa gives privileged marketing to a small group of sellers over and over again. This helps create the impression that ‘If those guys can succeed, then so can I’. “
Privileged — how, exactly? I extend upgrade subsidies, and sometimes free upgrades, to just about anyone willing to work with us to sell a great domain. I’ve extended the same to you, too, with varying results.
Absolutely anyone can succeed on our platform. We operate an active marketplace (though we have since initiated the more passive “set it and forget it” offering with the Domain Portfolio option), and success within it requires a number of ingredients that I will outline below.
“In reality, Flippa’s top-visibility spots are often taken up by a privileged group of sellers and by shill bidders who climb the ‘most active’ ladder through fraudulent activities of their own (for which Flippa is not directly responsible).”
Since I joined Flippa this past January, I’ve noticed an mammoth drop in fraudulent activity — thanks in full to our insanely diligent and detective-driven Customer Success and Marketplace Integrity teams. We still have some bridges to cross to make things even more secure, and in the case of domain sellers, protecting them against deadbeat or dodgy buyers.
Your remarks about shill bidding are a) warranted from a generic standpoint; this occurs in all online auction settings (which does not make it OK); but b) are also reckless, unless you know specifically who or what is behind these incidents and can report these people directly to our team.
Speculation is one thing, but we take this so seriously that we have since suspended and severed ties with some of our most successful (and for us, profitable) sellers — and I’ll stand by my guarantee to continue to do so, provided any inappropriate activity is taking place. So, this goes for anyone reading this: if you see something dodgy or strange, reach out and let us know. We’ll stop it, provided our investigation proves more than just your hunch.
“Ordinary Flippa customers must pay a variety of extra fees to get their auctions seen. Essentially, these fees are Flippa’s real business model. I’m guessing they account for much more revenue than percentage-based commissions from auctions that actually succeed.”
We are striving to create new modes and methods of visibility for our sellers’ inventory. With the addition of the Portfolio listing feature, whereby you can list your entire portfolio of inventory for free (and receive offers from buyers on an offer/counter-offer / Buy it Now basis, and choose to push to auction at any time), we do still charge for auction listings and for improved listing visibility. It is true that we charge a premium for exposure, but we are looking at making adjustments in the near future.
We’re going to be rolling out tools to better curate and showcase our best inventory, through new features such as an expanded rollout of Flippa Exclusives and Editors’ Choice for domains.
“6 or 12 months ago, the playing field on Flippa used to be much more level, much more fair. But in the past months, the market place has become increasingly lopsided.”
We’re exactly the same, aside from now having 130,000+ domains, (versus less than 1,000 domains last year at this time). Furthermore, we’ve added a remarkable Customer Success arm in the States, and a growing Domains-centric team, who are actively helping sellers list and sell their domains via strategies and tactics that are right for them.
“In fact, the selling situation at Flippa has become so absurdly skewed that a few special Flippa sellers will contact the rest of us and tell us that we need to let them list our domains because of all the special perks they get and all the ‘watchers’ they’ve accumulated.”
Disclosure or proof of this would be helpful, please.
“That isn’t brokerage. It’s just a few people with head-of-the-line privileges shaking down the rest of Flippa customers who must stand in line behind them. Frankly, it’s ridiculous.”
I’m unaware of this happening, as it is not something I have approved. Are you aware of others who are partaking in this?
“As time goes by, the situation on Flippa will become less and less fair, less and less competitive. Why? Because people with premium domains will be convinced to give their domains to some special Flippa seller so that he can list it for them — pretty much as they would have done themselves — and skim off an additional 15%.
Why do those guys get that extra 15%? Not because of any special outreach they’re doing. No, their ‘brokerage’ pitch to sellers is based on the special perks they get (and the sellers can’t get) from Flippa management and on the watchers they’ve accumulated as a result of those special perks. The deck is stacked against normal sellers.”
In accordance with the above, I’m not sanctioning that sellers reach out and attempt to sell on behalf of less successful / general sellers.
I am, however, quite in favor of promoting our most successful sellers to be auxiliary brokers, and by referring new sellers to these seller-brokers.
This is a two-fold tactic from my end; first, I am one guy (so far, and this will change next year) who is simply unable to reach out or work with every single person that contacts us to sell a domain. So I need help (we’ll be hiring sales leaders soon — if anyone reading this is interested, reach out…)
But more importantly:
I was working with Ali and realized he was one of the few sellers who has sold 100% of all his listings. That’s not hyperbole; he’s managed to sell each and every one he’s listed to date.
I was also working with someone who had great inventory, but had absolutely no time or ability to tend to his own account. I married this less successful seller (who’s a major investor and business owner in his main time, hence the inability to give his Flippa sales the time needed), referred ONE domain to Ali by way of introduction, and Ali turned a domain that hadn’t sold in 3+ tries into a sale on his first try.
Bottom line: if everyone is happy and more people can sell more domains, then your grievances only stand on one ground — which is the front-of-line privileges for these seller-brokers…
…which, I should state plainly, do not exist.
I work out deals for bulk-listings, bulk-upgrades, bulk-promotion — but aside from Flippa Exclusives (the investment-grade .COMs, usually — of which I have extended to you, Joseph, more than a few times), everyone is subject to the same standard of selling in our marketplace.
“If the owners of good domains would list their stuff themselves on Flippa, then they’d accumulate a list of ‘watchers’ themselves. But, as things are, they simply cannot get seen! Not unless they pay for a long list of add-ons to show up alongside the special privileged sellers. Not unless they ask their friends to place lots of fake bids below the reserve.”
I’m glad you brought this up. There were a few sellers that were asking friends to bid close to the reserve for them, and they are no longer selling with us. You may have noticed their absence. It was an intentional crackdown. If there are others you are aware of, feel free to bring them to my attention personally so we can investigate thoroughly.
*My main point that needs to be made here is in regards to your first sentence: that is the crux of the problem in listing high-end domains. I’ve worked with dozens of sellers — most want nothing to do with Flippa, with bettering their standing among buyers, with increasing their transaction history , getting great feedback — essentially participating in the marketplace at all.
They just want to sell the damn domain and don’t care where or how it happens.
A broker is a godsend to them and is something that is worth an extra 5% for many if not all involved.
But just to address your second sentence real quick, I’ve upgraded, personally — just as an experiment — some of these high-end owners’ auctions, and it made no difference whatsoever. Exposure didn’t help in those instances because there was no outreach, and no established account, and not enough watchers.
Were a high-end domain owner interested in really working to create a presence within our marketplace, then success may have been achievable over the long run. What’s more important to note here is that so many of these sellers had no interest in fostering a long-term presence or commitment — and that’s fine, because we all have lives, family, careers, etc.
It requires quite a bit of effort to sell actively on Flippa, and I do not think that is a bad thing. I also think there is a market for those sellers who are unable or unwilling to put in that effort (I just signed up a major portfolio owner this week, for instance) and who need our — Flippa’s — help.
Extrapolating this down to the lower-volume, or lower-tiered inventory sellers, I believe success is way more attainable by just being realistic, which I’ll make mention of below.
I cite domain broker John Daly (NameConnect) as a prime example of someone who has bucked this sentiment — he was wary of continuing onwards after some unsuccessful early attempts. He’s now sold almost $275,000 worth of inventory over the last few months.
As for Ali, he does this full time, and uses Flippa exclusively as his platform and marketplace of choice. He works his ass off to make each sale happen, and his followers are testament to this. I’m sure he’ll weigh in with his own words…
“So what happens? Premium domain owners get sucked in to the idea of letting a privileged class of Flippa sellers act as a layer between themselves and any possible success on the platform. Those sellers scrape off an extra 15% just for creating listings, which is exorbitant and unearned, in my opinion. And worst of all for Flippa customers, all the ‘watchers’ that would have gone to them go instead to the ‘broker’ who stands first in line. So over time, their own sales and their own success contributes to making the playing field at Flippa more unequal!”
If I knew a way to make each and every new seller become as successful as John and Ali and others who are making a full-time living off of domain sales, I’d do whatever I could. But after almost one solid year of tending very personally to hundreds of sellers, the secret ingredients are a combination of determination, budget to market, time spent on building their Flippa profile and stature, and pricing.
“I stopped listing at Flippa not because stuff wasn’t selling (from time to time it still sells if you’re lucky enough to be seen through the shill bids and special “brokers” with front-of-the-line privileges). I stopped selling because I felt like I was jogging and Flippa kept tilting the slope up. At this point, selling at Flippa for most of us is like running up a 70-degree incline. Unless we agree to give 15% to special sellers with access to attention. I certainly wouldn’t want to pay extra just to even things up on a basically unequal platform. And as for surrendering to a special class of Flippa brokers in order to get a normal degree of visibility, count me out!”
While I regret that you feel this way, our brokerage efforts are only going to be expanding as we strive to become a more high-end marketplace.
If you have a good domain, and if it is priced reasonably, we will work with you. If you pay for an upgrade, it will be seen; if it doesn’t get the action you’re wishing for, then we will work with you until you are satisfied. Should go without saying, a seller should consider whether an asset is priced realistically and whether he or she is doing all that can be done to promote a sale.
Joe, I know you’re a huge buyer and seller, and do this full time. I also know you’ve had mixed success on our platform. I’ve worked with you many times, extended subsidized upgrades for domains I have believed in, and I also know two things that inhibited your success.
You stopped building your reputation and followers after a few false starts or less-than-stellar experiences, and your reserve pricing is often unrealistic for our marketplace. Sometimes it hits, and other times it doesn’t — but the catch-22 with any (and successful) Flippa Domain seller is that he or she can build a following without massive upgrades, and can do so based solely on the inventory they can move.
This is done by outreach, by bringing outside buyers ONTO the platform to participate, and by pricing realistically for a quicker sale (< 30 days), and not for end-users that may or may not visit the auction by happenstance.
If you or anyone else thinks we should be doing things differently, I’m all ears and have been enacting changes based on customer feedback — and will continue to do so. We take it very seriously and I for one appreciate being able to have this dialogue…
— Kevin Fink, Director of Domains @FlippaDomains
You can follow the whole thread from that point on by clicking here
Flippa needs to show bidder Id’s, it is to easy to shill bid, or get friends to bid. Great for Flippa more commissions, bad for sellers, many auctions I have been in, many buyers present this frustration, FLIPPA HAS NEVER GIVEN ONE GOOD REASON WHY THEY CONTINUE DOWN THIS ROAD?
We’re taking this into heavy consideration and I’d like to discuss off-site with you, if interested…
thanks for this… new to flippa and image author opened my eyes with his post. Special perks for some and not for others, ebay seems fairer.
Image authors you have done great service for us all.
Would have been nice to share the other side in Ray’s post. Reach out to me with anything you wish to discuss…
Kevin I added your first reply in the post, I was trying not to post everything here, but there are still plenty of good posts for people to click through to read.
Thanks man.
I couldn’t agree more with your article. This is exactly what is happening now (and will continue to happen) on flippa. Every flippa user should read this.
I really appreciate this I didn’t realize there was a whole other game being played. I mean it’s pretty complicated then you can sell yourself but brokers get better deals.so makes sense to have them sell for you instead. I appreciate Kevin being so dedicated as well that is a long response to the initial post.
I think the point we missed here is Flippa filled a void, the ability to not only sell premiums but give a pitch to end users that may be interested as to WHY they should buy. As a result, I have personally seen heightened interest on domains brought to market as I do outreach to end users inviting them to bid. Flippa has had issues in the past but what’s important is they recognize and are rectifying the issues.
All startups have growth problems though I personally don’t see the need for hard work to gain exposure as one of them. Half of the higher end domain sales I read about are out of Flippa’s marketplace so I applaud them for pushing the domain industry by bringing together developers, end users and Domain owners.
There was no void, I will take godaddy anyday.
Very interesting article. I sold quite a few websites last year on Flippa but this year my sales were zero. Granted my inventory was better, but it just seemed like there was less attention overall (less comments, questions, etc). This may have shed some light on it. The problem is what is the alternative? Sure there are other avenues and I have used those, but the mass audience on Flippa is hard to find elsewhere.
I really like Flippa and have made several purchases on the site which I considered good deals. I do agree that the promotional fees are rather exorbitant and in my opinion, listing fees should be free for sellers especially if a seller is required to pay a percentage of the sale which is pretty significant.
One major complaint I have is that as of recent, I have tried to contact Flippa on a couple of inquiries and never received a response. Therefore, I can definitely say as a customer, a buyer, and recent seller, they certainly need to be more engaging with their customers. ALL CUSTOMERS.
What email did you write to?
How do we get in touch with these brokers?
I was approached by one of these special brokers to sell some of my premium domains. He was cocky, rude and condescending – and couldn’t justify to me why I need to pay an extra fee just to have the privilege to sell with him. I have a large portfolio of very good domains I was going to sell through Flippa (which I’ve been building for over 15 years), but I won’t if this article rings true and people like the broker who approached me are running the show.
Hi guys,
Has anyone a quick link to the thread? For the life of me I can’t find it. How do I find it on namepros? I searched for flippa on namepros and brought up a thread of 7 replies which I presume is not it?
https://www.namepros.com/threads/whiskey-com-was-at-2-000-000-on-flippa-fake-bid-removed.839852/page-4#post-4742109
Raymond – thanks.
Well Joseph have spoken his mind and you have tried to defend the whole thing but one thing remains fact is that two people can not be guilty of the truth behind the whole seen.
All I can say is just let flipa be more active and transparent in your business transaction because many people are watching from sideline.
I wish more success in your business dealings.
Problem is with flippa they know shill bidding is going on and they do nothing i complained so they banned me…
If you say anything negative against flippa they ban you, they are run by a bad regime a dictatorship…Adolf, Saddam eat your heart out.
The sooner a serious rival comes along the better.
“…..they are run by a bad regime…..
You can sort of get that idea from their personal tweets…..
“The sooner a serious rival comes along the better.”
It may happen much sooner than you think. But it wont be a rival. It will be much classier. Business CAN be done without shady tactics and still be profitable. 😉
Personal tweets?
Hi Stu,
What’s your Flippa username?
Curious to find out what happened and how I can help.
I work daily with the Customer Success and Marketplace Integrity teams.
If they ban someone…it’s for a damned good reason.
Simply suggesting improvements, or even outright complaining to us, does not constitute being banned from our platform.
Shill bidding, however, does. We have a zero-tolerance policy on shill bidders.
One thing that I mentioned in the forum is that if you or anyone reading spots dicey behavior, we want to know about it.
A reply was “Well, that’s your job, not ours” — and yes, we have teams who do eradicate the bad behavior on the daily.
But since we can’t be on top of every single auction at every single hour of every single day, we do encourage people to speak up — we take it tremendously seriously, and no — we won’t ban you for mentioning it.
As for the “brokers” with “special perks” , this had become plainly obvious to me within the 30 days or so.
Ali ( KCgroup ) had previously been listing mediocre to second-tier domains at best , but within the past month his listings all of a sudden became premium to ultra-premium domains. This struck me as highly peculiar , considering the quality of his previous listings.
I did a Whois check and discovered that Ali ( KCgroup ) is not the owner of any of the high-end domains he has listed. He was brokering.
Kevin admitted he facilitated the brokerage between Ali and the less successful seller. If that isn’t a “special perk” I don’t know what is.
Hi Dex,
By saying less successful seller, that was misguided of me. True, there are some sellers who have had no luck selling a domain, only to have a proxy seller find success.
What I was more referring to was the portfolio owner that has absolutely no time to sell their domains; nor are they at all willing or able to become as active as needed to be successful on Flippa.
As such, there is a market for brokers within our platform to assist in the selling of these domains.
That said, and per my comments above and throughout the forum, the ‘perks’ that brokers receive are the same that are available to all sellers: discounts on listing and upgrade costs, as well as additional promotion for high-end inventory.
Subsidies and reduced costs for upgrades are available to you, too — I’ve made myself available and reachable via multiple channels and am happy to discuss anytime.
Hi Dex,
Things are being conflated quite astonishingly, so I would like to first reiterate that the “perks” that these brokers are receiving are no different than what anyone — yourself included — would receive if you work with someone on the Domains team at Flippa.
These “perks” are merely discounted / subsidized listings and upgrades, as well as greater exposure around high-end inventory.
If you’re reading this and think you’re excluded from this “special treatment,” I urge you to contact me — I’m visible in forums, on our blog, or via my Domains@Flippa email addy.
The worst that can happen is my being honest and saying “I don’t think that this domain will do so hot at auction / with that reserve / with these parameters, but here are some credits and access to upgrade subsidies if you’re still interested in trying.”
The best that can happen is my being honest and saying “This is an amazing domain, and I’d like to feature it as a Flippa Exclusive / stick in the Editors’ Choice section / provide you a discounted upgrade…”
One last thing — I made mention of a “less successful” seller, the person that handed Ali his portfolio of high-end inventory to broker.
I misspoke; it’s not that this person was “less successful;” it’s that he was simply unable — both in terms of time and interest — to actively tend to his Flippa account. He wanted someone else to sell his domains for him.
There’s a vast use-case for this, and we’ll be finding ways to fill this request for our members. If you’re reading this and are interested in such a service, you wouldn’t be the first person from this thread to reach out to us asking when it will be available.
As for brokers selling domains within the general marketplace — as we build our brokerage platform, we are exploring adjunct ways to deliver it.
The obvious solution is to house brokered domains in a separate section. It creates visibility for the domain owner / broker, it’s a funneled place buyers will go, and mitigates this friction that is occurring throughout all these forums.
Hope that all makes sense.
I wondered how Ali went from the hand registered P-shit on the SHERPA review to the names now on Flippa
You should rerun this also on the domains
All these names at Auction should have same owners as the “WHOIS” shows.
Many of the domains are with a reseller then you see them on flippa listed without the domainr owner giving his OK or even knowing “WHATUp”
I’m not sure what problem you have with someone acting as broker for a domain name that seems to be doing a good job?
“Many of the domains are with a reseller then you see them on flippa listed without the domainr owner giving his OK or even knowing ‘WHATUp’ ”
Of all the things that have been said, erroneous and otherwise, this one makes the least amount of sense. It’s also simply not true, but feel free to share links you feel represent what you’re referring to…
It’s telling that Flippa has gone from reassuring everybody that special brokers “are no different” … to putting its entire corporate weight behind KCGroup as the site’s official “senior broker”.
Quite a contradiction! By hard-wiring this imbalance into the system, Flippa has proved my point decisively.
I agree with everything you have ever said about them, Joseph, I would never do business with that outfit.
nice information in here, i think i need the brokerage services of such power sellers. am OK with giving them the 15% profit value, how do i contact them. can you connect me to one or 2 of them?
I just had a bad experience with flippa.
I purchased 2 websites and placed a bid on one Android app and decided not to pay for it because I discovered that the app wasn’t working with lollipop. I explained the seller, but he filed a dispute. In my flippa account I didn’t see any request for answering this dispute, nor that the seller filed one. Flippa banned me because I didn’t answer the dispute. now they ask me for an ID to see if they can reinstate my account. This is not fair and they are not allowed to ID people, they are not a financial institution or anything like that. And I am afraid that my personal data gets stolen.
I find this practice very unfair. They should look at both sides.
Flippa be fair and stop asking for ID’s. You are not allowed to. I am ready to file a few complaints with some organizations.
I have never dealt with flippa, or buying and selling websites, I want to enter this field (buying and selling websites), what do you advise me?
If you are still around, I would not advise doing business on flippa. Just saw an ongoing exchange with flippa about a sale made to a woman that turned out to be a fraudulent sale.
A friend of mine has tried to get fair treatment from flippa regarding the horrible treatment from both the seller (who took her money and didn’t deliver the complete business she was supposed to have bought) and flippa staff who advised her what she could do.
Flippa staff have been horrible toward my female friend. They even talked down to her like she was a kid or something. I would never do business with that website. Look for alternatives.